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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-05, 04:30:57 pm 
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Joined: 2009-07-24, 06:29:35 am
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Location: Schreiber , Ontario
To Tom46
Not only are they biding on 4 or 5 in a row but they are also bidding against themselves 4 or 5 times in a row .

Denis


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-05, 05:20:47 pm 
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Most likely not- looking on that auction history it looks like one guy set his max bid at 300 and the other kept trying in small incriments to get the top bid.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-05, 06:37:16 pm 
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Location: Keeping a low profile in Orillia ON
The weather in Canada has really broken as far as I am concerned for this year. I have been out recently in the cold and it is not too bad if you bundle up. One guy I knew used to ride his motorbike well into winter with a snowmobile suit, not sure if I would go that far. By the time your bike gets here and assembled it will be a couple of weeks and colder, not really any riding weather left.

If I was wanting an ebike I would wait a little for the middle of winter to bid, I am sure the initial surge would die down and maybe the prices would be cheaper, as well you might get a 2010 model. The time to buy is when everyone else is not interested. By the time the weather breaks in the spring you are all assembled and ready to go.

That eBay auction you link to Denis - $400 is shipping and the bidding is over $300 and that is USD, so add 10% for CDN and taxes you are up over 800$ altogether already.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-08, 03:53:16 am 
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Location: Saskatchewan
First off, the bikes are worth what someone will pay for them. If they're going for more, good for the ebike retailers. Let's support them and wish them good business so that we can keep buying ebikes for many years to come.

I think that when you see the same bidder a bunch of times in a row, it's actually the proxy bidding. I've seen it on the giobike website as well. If someone, let's say BidderA, has proxy bid $400, but the high bid is only $200, then "BidderA $200" is what you see. If someone else bids, let's say, $250, BidderA's proxy bid will instantly overtake it at the next bid step, maybe $255. You never see the other person's bid because at no time did that other person actually have the winning bid. I THINK that's how it is.

Lastly, why buy from ebay? It's more expensive--you really get hosed on the shipping. Go to the source, people! Shipping from the Gio website is a much better deal (especially if you're in a large market). And I'm not just saying that to line my own pockets.

And, if you ARE artificially raising prices, shame on you! That is against the agreement you make with Giobikes as a bidder. If anyone brags about doing that here, you will be banished.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-08, 04:30:27 pm 
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Posts: 146
Location: Ontario
Thanks Jim and Vanquizor I see what you mean about proxy bidding, and yes Giobikes is the best way to go other then ebay.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-08, 06:29:36 pm 
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Location: Keeping a low profile in Orillia ON
In the case cited by Denis, there was no intervening bids so it would not be proxy bidding. If there is proxy bidding, the bidding would still go in sequence of bidder x, bidder y, bidder x, and so on. The case cited would be someone bidding against themselves. This would be easily solved by some sort of software limiting this bidding, but why would they.

Yes I agree the dealers must make money, however I still have to look after number 1 (me) and if they are willing to give me a deal on something, I will gladly take it if I want it. I actually wonder what these Gios actually cost landed in Vancouver, the prices are all over the map, I see some advertised well over $1000.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-08, 07:12:02 pm 
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Posts: 203
orillia3

I concur, dealers need to make a profit…the alternative is they close their doors and that helps no one. The question is, what is a fair profit?

Any scooter that says Gio is from GioBikes.com (or actually from Parnus Global Trading Co.) Of course, a large volume dealer can purchase the same scooter directly from Luyuan, but it would not have the Gio name/logo.

Actual dealers, in Windsor Ontario, sell the Gio 500W Scooter for $1,099 – to - $1,199 plus GST and PST (bringing the total to $1,243 - $1,355) and part-time dealers selling (from their homes) the same product for $800 - $1,000.

I was able to make a deal with GioBikes for a Gio 500W Scooter, delivered to my door (in Windsor) for less than $600 (all inclusive). If I can purchase a single scooter, delivered to my door for less than $600…I believe it’s fair to suggest a dealer, purchasing several scooters, would have a better price point.

I realize an actual dealer will provide a warranty period and there is a cost associated with that service, but making more than 100% on the re-sale of a Gio is not a fair profit, it’s an obscene profit.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-09, 06:08:38 am 
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Joined: 2009-07-16, 09:52:19 am
Posts: 60
Location: Chilliwack/Abbotsford BC
If you think that 100% profit is obscene, then what do you think about 500% or more? A good case in point are those silly cigarette filters which supposedly remove most of the tar from the inhaled tobacco smoke. I spotted a rather large inventory of those in the local dollar store a few weeks ago. It was not too long after that when someone came in and bought out every last one of them. Now, they're selling on eBay for $4.99 each, plus $3.00 'shipping and handling'! That whole process is known as 'Capitalism' or if you'd rather, business: to make a healthy profit. And actually, there is nothing wrong with that, if you really think about it. As Jim pointed out, it all boils down to a matter of supply and demand...an item is worth only what a buyer is willing to pay for it. Our Gios (or a slightly different model) currently retail in China for under the equivalent of $200.00 CDN. That means that the manufacturer produced the Gio for less than that amount (perhaps half?) and sold it for a healthy profit. Nothing wrong with that....that's the way of the world. Everyone in business should be entitled to make a profit, right?


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-09, 02:01:58 pm 
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Joined: 2009-05-27, 02:43:40 am
Posts: 248
Location: Toronto
100% markup is considered a minimal unit pricing benchmark in many industries, in order to pay the staff, municipal, provincial and federal taxes and stay in business.

Don't confuse profit with taxation: gasoline really only "costs" a quarter per litre, the rest is tax. Likewise with booze and smokes... most of the "charge" doesn't go to the seller, it goes to the government.

I know from my own family variety store that some items were 200-250 per cent markup in order to make up for the ones that were 50 per cent or way less... because we had to deal with marketplace shoppers who griped "but it's only $1.49 at WalMart!" One day I snatched a box of tissue from a stranger at my till and said. "Okay then, don't buy it and walk 20 blocks to WalMart in the rain. Get out." (That's the day I left the business, haha.)

If eBike retailers were getting wealthy on 100 per cent markup, they'd be driving battery powered Rolls Royces instead of Gios.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-09, 02:09:21 pm 
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Posts: 100
Yea the guy in Winnipeg that sells the GIO gets them for around 550$, but by the time he has to pay for store rent and warranty issues he is still not making that much of a living.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-09, 02:30:49 pm 
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Posts: 284
I don't know how it is in other cities, but in Regina I think our e-bike store is really missing the mark...

Back when I was a financial manager for an auto dealership as long as we were close to breaking even on a new vehicle it was sold. The parts & service area was where the bills got paid- selling new vehicles was purely to build customer base and keep the manufacturere happy! When I was doing the books for a RV dealership again it was the service and storage that brought home the real dough.

When you walk into the e-bike store in regina there is 8 bikes and a front desk. Not a part or accessory to be seen?!? If it were my shop you can bet there'd be at least a display (if sample product is impractical) for longer range batteries, dc to dc converters, tires, smart chargers, high efficiency controlers, advanced power monitoring, ect.

To date I've spent easily double the purchase price of my gio on aftermarket (tires,controler,cycle analyst,batteries) mostly off e-bay. If I could scoot across town and pick up these toys (or better yet get them installed) you can bet the dollars I spent would still be in the city.

Is this a huge opportunity or is there good reason I'm not a e-bike dealer?


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-09, 04:05:06 pm 
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Posts: 203
Agreed Vanquizor…dealers need to better establish themselves as e-scooter and related product/service retailers. carcostcanada.com reveal the average auto dealer markup per new vehicle is 6-7%…so, the real money comes in, as you pointed out, with the aftermarket.

Relying on huge markup will not bring local retailers sales, it will drive sales away or at best defer a sale.

You are correct; they need to look at accessories, parts, component upgrades, service (tune-up) plans and the like to expand their business and thereby their profit. They also need to understand there is a market out their beyond the simple hobbyist who is interested in fixing (or moding) their own scooter. Most consumers purchase a product for its utility, not to role up their sleeves and mod or repair the product…computers are a prime example.

Basic economics tells us …sales volume increases as the price of a commodity decreases…so, do you sell a few scooters at a high price point OR increase the sales volume by reducing the price point.

The only away to grow the scooter market is to rely on volume and reduce the purchase price. This will happen as more sophisticated retailers enter the market.

While I agree with Gordon Gekkos ‘greed is good’ philosophy…we must still remember ‘pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered’.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-09, 10:00:20 pm 
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Joined: 2009-07-10, 07:02:25 am
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Location: Keeping a low profile in Orillia ON
I agree parts could be a good part of a business. One of the justifications GM et al squashed their electric car program seemed to be that they could not sell all the aftermarket parts where a lot of the profit was when it needed service.

I certainly would not like to have my business as ebikes exclusively. I think the most viable are the ones that add ebikes to their product mix. A business dealing with regular bikes, recreation outdoor products, or a motorcycle shop would be probably the best until sales volume increases. I agree parts seem to be a limiting factor, as well as service. There are two bicycle shops here and I see many bicycles each day, but rarely see another ebike. I believe there cannot be more than 4 or 5 total in all of Orillia, including mine.

The Daymak dealer north of Orillia had a booth in the park for a boat show and people seemed to like the idea, but I doubt he made many sales. One of the problems here is the hills. If the ebikes had been 750 Watt motors like in the USA it would have given people more power for the hills. I understand ebikes are more popular in British Columbia, there seems to be still lots of negative attitude and publicity in Ontario.

Right now the ebike owners in Ontario are really pioneers riding their toasters, and until dealer networks with service and parts become established it only leaves the do-it-yourselfers in the mix. I would be curious as to the number of ebikes that have been sold, province by province.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-10-10, 09:43:36 pm 
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Joined: 2009-10-10, 09:32:35 pm
Posts: 5
RE Not only are they biding on 4 or 5 in a row but they are also bidding against themselves 4 or 5 times in a row

In my case I hit the Bid Now button and did not see anything. Was expecting a actual bid page and bid against myself and increased my own cost by some 30.00. I question the fairness of their biding system. Looks to me like it is designed to lure bidders to bid while the newbie doesn't realize it. Just got my accidental purchase yesterday and have it put together and batter being charged. If it works good I will be very happy.

dkoug


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2009-12-02, 06:12:39 pm 
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Posts: 15
I have a strong suspicion that Gio has a number of internal accounts that they use to get the bid up to a certain point. This kind of thing would be frowned upon at e-bay, but this is Gio's own site. If they win a bike by setting a high maximum bid, there is really no loss to them. Its not like they would need to sell the bike to themselves. it would just go up for auction again.

Don't get me wrong, here. I could see right though this method myself in about 2 minutes, but I still decided to buy from the site. The price of the bike was still the best I had seen anywhere. By going about holding auctions in this way, Gio is merely setting a reserve bid at a level where they won't be losing money. From what I can see, there's nothing wrong with that at all. Even if stating that the auction is "no reserve" is a little dishonest, the buyer is still getting value for his or her money. Would I prefer to see the company sell their bikes at a set price? Sure, but that would put them into competition with their own retailers in such a way that the retailers wouldn't be able to compete. This way, the buyers who take the time and do their research get a good deal, the "thrill" of "winning" the auction, and the retailers can still have their retail prices.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-03-28, 03:53:48 pm 
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Quote:
I have a strong suspicion that Gio has a number of internal accounts that they use to get the bid up to a certain point. This kind of thing would be frowned upon at e-bay, but this is Gio's own site. If they win a bike by setting a high maximum bid, there is really no loss to them. Its not like they would need to sell the bike to themselves. it would just go up for auction again.

Don't get me wrong, here. I could see right though this method myself in about 2 minutes, but I still decided to buy from the site. The price of the bike was still the best I had seen anywhere. By going about holding auctions in this way, Gio is merely setting a reserve bid at a level where they won't be losing money. From what I can see, there's nothing wrong with that at all. Even if stating that the auction is "no reserve" is a little dishonest, the buyer is still getting value for his or her money. Would I prefer to see the company sell their bikes at a set price? Sure, but that would put them into competition with their own retailers in such a way that the retailers wouldn't be able to compete. This way, the buyers who take the time and do their research get a good deal, the "thrill" of "winning" the auction, and the retailers can still have their retail prices.


"A little dishonest"?

It is completely dishonest!! While I agree that the "final" bid prices on the giobikes "auctions" may be reasonable, their method for getting those prices are completely and totally illegal! You cannot legally advertise a sale as an "auction", especially one with "no reserve" when you are shilling to artificially raise the prices! It's now no longer an "auction".

As per Giobikes' own terms of use:

Quote:
3.6 Shill Bidding. You are strictly prohibited from placing bids or causing bids to be placed on any Product for the purpose of artificially increasing or otherwise manipulating the bidding process on GIOBIKES.com or the bid price of any Product listed on the Site, or influencing user behavior on GIOBIKES.com.


That would suggest to me that no shilling to artificially inflate prices is allowed, no? If so, then why are THEY allowed to do it? The users "Ashaley" and "Tonym63" are automated bidders, there for the specific purpose of shilling the bid prices. For clear evidence of this, examine Google caches of the Giobikes auction pages from weeks/months ago - You'll see the SAME bidders bidding the SAME prices...

I'm going to do a little more research, but I strongly suspect that such blatant practices are completely illegal under Canada's false advertising laws.

Dodger


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-03-29, 06:13:10 pm 
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Posts: 31
We have 2 gios for fun we got last year. I still look at the site from time to time and wonder why the same 2 people seem to bid for all the bikes listed. Over time the names have changed but the practise seems to be holding up. My thought is that if I was a dealer I would negotiate a contract to suppy bikes at a fixed cost not leave my supply to luck of the bid! Does anyone else have anyb thoughts on this?


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-06-19, 05:00:15 pm 
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morrie wrote:
We have 2 gios for fun we got last year. I still look at the site from time to time and wonder why the same 2 people seem to bid for all the bikes listed. Over time the names have changed but the practise seems to be holding up. My thought is that if I was a dealer I would negotiate a contract to suppy bikes at a fixed cost not leave my supply to luck of the bid! Does anyone else have anyb thoughts on this?


I just won an auction for a dirt bike off giobikes.com
I received the bike, seems good quality, but the bidding system is deceptive and dishonest.
Obviously they have shill bidders setup to automatically bid items up to a "reserve" amount.
Not only that, they have a bogus "Auction Fee" - fee for what? It is their system, why do they have to charge $50 or 10% over $500?
Also, the freight was excessive at $235, from Vancouver to Alberta. Considering the amount of items they probably ship, they likely pay about 1/2 that, so they are profitting on up-charging the freight as well!


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-06-19, 11:14:55 pm 
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FosterVS wrote:
morrie wrote:
We have 2 gios for fun we got last year. I still look at the site from time to time and wonder why the same 2 people seem to bid for all the bikes listed. Over time the names have changed but the practise seems to be holding up. My thought is that if I was a dealer I would negotiate a contract to suppy bikes at a fixed cost not leave my supply to luck of the bid! Does anyone else have anyb thoughts on this?


I just won an auction for a dirt bike off giobikes.com
I received the bike, seems good quality, but the bidding system is deceptive and dishonest.
Obviously they have shill bidders setup to automatically bid items up to a "reserve" amount.
Not only that, they have a bogus "Auction Fee" - fee for what? It is their system, why do they have to charge $50 or 10% over $500?
Also, the freight was excessive at $235, from Vancouver to Alberta. Considering the amount of items they probably ship, they likely pay about 1/2 that, so they are profitting on up-charging the freight as well!



It is deceptive. Also, I was charged PST here in BC but was offered no invoice so I have no proof I paid it. When you consider the auction shills, the hidden auction fee and the overpriced shipping trap, I can conjecture where the undocumented PST went.

I really despise and avoid doing business with sneaky people.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-06-20, 05:42:07 am 
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Posts: 178
Location: Saskatoon
I do agree to a point. The Auction fee kinda sucks, but I think it is the main area they are making money on the site, since they have to pay something for the bikes, since they aren't actually Gio made bikes.

As for shipping, I do agree they are upcharging for that. I spoke to someone else who ordered a bike and they called Day and Ross, and asked how much to ship a package from Vancouver to Saskatoon that weighed 170 lbs, and were told in the neighbourhood of $100. I payed $180. Maybe we are also paying for the shipping from China to Vancouver???

But in the end, seeing that I have a great bike in my driveway for about half the price I could have gotten one at Walmart for, I still think its a great deal.


As for the Shilling up prices. I to thought I was getting the run around when I was bidding for my bike. The funny thing was it was "NanaimoScooterShop" that I was trying to bid against. Hehehe. I am guessing by his reply on the forums that he wasn't actually trying to bid up the price, and wouldn't be suprised if he thought I was doing the same :). Personally I think the "Regular" bidders that we see bidding the same amount on tons of bikes are probably the people you see flipping the bikes once they get them on Kijiji. They don't want to pay more then a fixed price, or will cut into their profit margin. Get the bike to their city for $500 and sell on Kijiji for $800-$999. $300+ easy profit.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-06-20, 04:46:14 pm 
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If they just set a reserve on the auction and did away with this deceptive shill bidding. I would think that the "2nd chance offer" they so generously give people who are outbid is somewhat proof of the shill bidding as well. I paid about the same everyone else has 260 for the bike about 180 to ship it to ontario, and a bit of GST and the 'aution fee' and still the guy who sells them in town is still $800+ plus both taxes for the same bike. Overall, the online method is still the better deal and at least they give you all the prices up front so you know what you are paying. It's not perfect but still i know i saved a few hundred bucks.

StoonGuy wrote:
I do agree to a point. The Auction fee kinda sucks, but I think it is the main area they are making money on the site, since they have to pay something for the bikes, since they aren't actually Gio made bikes.

As for shipping, I do agree they are upcharging for that. I spoke to someone else who ordered a bike and they called Day and Ross, and asked how much to ship a package from Vancouver to Saskatoon that weighed 170 lbs, and were told in the neighbourhood of $100. I payed $180. Maybe we are also paying for the shipping from China to Vancouver???

But in the end, seeing that I have a great bike in my driveway for about half the price I could have gotten one at Walmart for, I still think its a great deal.


As for the Shilling up prices. I to thought I was getting the run around when I was bidding for my bike. The funny thing was it was "NanaimoScooterShop" that I was trying to bid against. Hehehe. I am guessing by his reply on the forums that he wasn't actually trying to bid up the price, and wouldn't be suprised if he thought I was doing the same :). Personally I think the "Regular" bidders that we see bidding the same amount on tons of bikes are probably the people you see flipping the bikes once they get them on Kijiji. They don't want to pay more then a fixed price, or will cut into their profit margin. Get the bike to their city for $500 and sell on Kijiji for $800-$999. $300+ easy profit.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-06-21, 03:29:46 pm 
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Posts: 162
Location: Winnipeg
I figured the guys Ashaley, and whomever else are just people reselling them. If there wasn't already someone doing it in Winnipeg, I would be. You're right that it'd be nice to contract a deal with Gio on supplying a certain quantity at a given price, but maybe they won't do it? And the $250-$260 auction price is basically the cutoff where you'd wanna be if selling them for profit at $800. You're looking at pocketing about $250 per sale, which isn't much if you're backing up the sale with any warranty and service.

I've bid on a few other items in the last 15 seconds on the auctions that were just at $1.00. I'm not sure what to think, because I haven't actually won anything for $2.00. There is always someone else there to outbid me. The makes me suspicious, but I have gotten second chance offers for less than $5 on items that would cost hundreds locally in the store. Regardless of the auction being completely legit (or even legal) these are still the best prices you can find.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-06-21, 04:02:49 pm 
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Joined: 2010-04-14, 01:30:16 pm
Posts: 387
Location: Scootin' on in Welland ON
I did get my helmet for $2.00 (+auction fee, taxes, shipping...) Still, at $24 total it was a bargain.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-06-21, 05:45:11 pm 
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[quote="dthornbu"]I did get my helmet for $2.00 (+auction fee, taxes, shipping...) Still, at $24 total it was a bargain.[/quo

Same here...it was 2.00 for my helmet as well. If you want a full shiled for that helmet canadian tire has them for 12 bucks....


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-06-21, 05:50:50 pm 
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Posts: 162
Location: Winnipeg
Wish I woulda done that. My first scoot was a few blocks from my house to a scooter store to buy a helmet. They didn't even have the face shield, I had them order one in for me. I spent $100 and change for both.


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 Post subject: Re: gio auction
PostPosted: 2010-07-07, 12:42:42 am 
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Joined: 2010-06-29, 02:12:50 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Kingston Ontario
Well, I did bid online just last night after a lot of reading, and I suspect that there are a some resellers bidding. I was really pleased to find that when I was outbid on my $263 bid, I got a second chance offer of a bike at my bidding price. I didn't get my choice of colour, but I'm pleased to get a Gio under $600 to the depot in my city.

I unticked the "High Quality Catalogue".... I'm hoping that I didn't miss out a way to order parts.

Just got my tracking number, but it's too soon to follow. I feel like a little kid waiting for Christmas.


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